Folks,

Has anyone here contacted the CT Attorney General's office, or a similar state government agency, to ask what they're doing about sign spam? Or ask why they're not doing anything? I assume they don't care enough to act, but it is against the law.

I'm also surprised I never read in the newspaper about a spammer being arrested in the act. Surely some police officer somewhere in CT has happened by as a spammer was hanging a sign. Do they not care? Are they instructed to ignore it? Do they simply not know they're witnessing a crime?

It occurs to me maybe an arrangement could be made with the state to *pay us* for sign removal, funding it from the proceeds of fines. I for one would love to see these idiots get fined big-time, with the strength of the state behind it, and their resources to subpoena the phone company to give addresses from the phone numbers on the signs. Until big ($500 per sign) fines are imposed - and collected - the spammers will never stop.

--Ethan

>Folks,
>
>Has anyone here contacted the CT Attorney General's office, or a
>similar state government agency, to ask what they're doing about
>sign spam? Or ask why they're not doing anything? I
>assume they don't care enough to act, but it is
>against the law.

Probably too busy. Not sure about the AG's office, but I know that the State Police don't have near enough troopers.

>I'm also surprised I never read in the newspaper about a
>spammer being arrested in the act. Surely some police officer
>somewhere in CT has happened by as a spammer was
>hanging a sign. Do they not care? Are they instructed
>to ignore it? Do they simply not know they're witnessing
>a crime?
>
There's one cop here in town who told me that he'd LOVE to catch a spammer sometime when he's on night shift.

I'd suspect that the others don't know or just haven't seen a spammer putting up signs. I'm sure the spammers are constantly on the lookout for police cars, and just drive bywhen they see one. Makes the probability of a cop / spammer intersection pretty slim.

It would be interesting if you could talk to the police in New Milford, and let us know what they have to say. You could call my uncle at the News-Times (the guy who wrote the story about you); I'm sure he would be able to give you the name of a police officer who would be receptive to your questions.

>It occurs to me maybe an arrangement could be made with the state to *pay us* for sign removal, funding it from the proceeds of fines.
>I for one would love to see these idiots get
>fined big-time, with the strength of the state behind it,
>and their resources to subpoena the phone company to give
>addresses from the phone numbers on the signs. Until big
>($500 per sign) fines are imposed - and collected -
>the spammers will never stop.

The "bounty" idea has been kicked around in the forums before, with no clear resolution. Even the current $50 per sign fines would be good, if imposed. If 50 signs cost the spammer $2500.00, I bet he wouldn't be back any time soon.

I'll talk with my local cop again soon, and find out if there's any way that I could assist the town in a prosecution. There must be some kind of legwork I can do for them that would make it easier and quicker for them to drag one of these people into court.

See if you have time to do the same out there, would you? The local cop told me that since it's a State law, that does not mean that only the State can prosecute - any police officer can enforce a State law.

Good to hear from you again.

Redstone

RS,

> Even the current $50 per sign fines would be good, if imposed. If 50 signs cost the spammer $2500.00, I bet he wouldn't be back any time soon. <

I just got a phone call from a friend who sometimes helps me grab signs. He said last night about 10:30 as he was getting off the highway, he saw the Fitness Zone guy putting up a sign. He pulled over and told him, "You know, that's illegal, and a lot of people don't like that and take them down." The guy told my friend "I know who's taking them and I can keep up with him. And the head of the zoning board is a friend of mine. Until they take me to court and fine me, I'm going to keep putting up signs. Hey, I have a family to feed."

I think my next phone call is to the mayor, demanding that the zoning officer be fired (assuming this is really true).

--Ethan

Ethan wrote:

>I just got a phone call from a friend who sometimes helps me grab signs. He
>said last night about 10:30 as he was getting off the highway, he saw the
>Fitness Zone guy putting up a sign. He pulled over and told him, "You know,
>that's illegal, and a lot of people don't like that and take them down." The
>guy told my friend "I know who's taking them and I can keep up with
>him. And the head of the zoning board is a friend of mine. Until they
>take me to court and fine me, I'm going to keep putting up signs. Hey,
>I have a family to feed."

Sigh. Same old story --- rationalizing his illegal behavior.

I don't suppose your friend got a description of the Fitness Zone guy, along with the vehicle and license plate number...?

In the meantime, don't jump to conclusions about the head of the zoning board. The spammer may very well have just been feeding your friend a line of bull. Check it out, by all means, but tread lightly until you verify the facts. If that story isn't true, the last thing you want to do is to make the zoning guy your enemy.
--
Remora
Remora@Resourceful.com

remora
--
remora@resourceful.com

Remora,

> I don't suppose your friend got a description of the Fitness Zone guy, along with the vehicle and license plate number...? <

We know exactly who he is, and so do the zoning people. His name is (ahem) Palmer Collier III and he's listed in the phone book.

> The spammer may very well have just been feeding your friend a line of bull. Check it out ... the last thing you want to do is to make the zoning guy your enemy. <

Yes, excellent point. See below for more on Mr. Collier.

--Ethan

>I think my next phone call
>is to the mayor, demanding
>that the zoning officer be
>fired (assuming this is really
>true).

And, assuming that New Milford has its own rules about the signs that are under the purview of the Zoning people.

I'd bet that a police officer would not be able to refuse to enforce the State statute about the signs, but a zoning guy may not be allowed to pursue anything that isn't phrohibited specifically within the zoning laws.

There are quite a few muncipal zoning people in this group, but every town is different, so you'll probably have to check this out in your town.

Keep us posted on what you find.

Redstone

Redstone,

Here's what happened yesterday:

Palmer Collier, The Fitness Zone guy, puts up his signs most Saturdays, and I usually take them down later in the day. They're always at the intersection where his business is, and also along the same road for a half-mile stretch. So yesterday I went out at 10:00 am instead of waiting, and he had put them up all over. I took them all down, and came back a few hours later. Not only were they all up again, but he'd put up other ones in new places. Openly defiant. I took them all down. I drove up the road the get the rest and came back five minutes later. He had put some of them back up again! He must have been watching out his window. So I took them all down again. This is war.

> I'd bet that a police officer would not be able to refuse to enforce the State statute about the signs <

And that's just what I'm hoping for. Tomorrow first thing I'm calling the state Attorney General's office to ask exactly what I can and cannot demand from the police. I read through the statute you sent me, and it's clear that not only are signs on poles illegal, but so are the signs with wire stuck in the ground at highway intersections. I really like the part about six months in jail, because all but the most defiant - like Palmer Collier - will surely take notice when I bring it to their attention.

--Ethan

>Palmer Collier, The Fitness Zone guy,
>puts up his signs most
>Saturdays, and I usually take
>them down later in the
>day. They're always at the
>intersection where his business is,
>and also along the same
>road for a half-mile stretch.
>So yesterday I went out
>at 10:00 am instead of
>waiting, and he had put
>them up all over. I
>took them all down, and
>came back a few hours
>later. Not only were they
>all up again, but he'd
>put up other ones in
>new places. Openly defiant. I
>took them all down. I
>drove up the road the
>get the rest and came
>back five minutes later. He
>had put some of them
>back up again! He must
>have been watching out his
>window. So I took them
>all down again. This is
>war.

Are you actually taking the signs, or just laying them on the ground? If you're not taking them as "litter", then it's not costing him anything but time to put them back up.

If you are taking them, keep it up and he'll start to figure out how much money he's losing.

Beastie

=======================
Beastie

Beastie,

> If you are taking them, keep it up and he'll start to figure out how much money he's losing. <

Of course I take them. I have about 350 so far, and the zoning lady told me each sign costs him $5. But he obviously doesn't care because he just had a new round printed (with different colors and text). I guess he figures it's still worth it even if they stay up only for a day.

I just got off the phone with the state attorney general's office. They said, contrary to my reading of the statute, that the phone or power company have to complain before they can do anything. However, since the Fitness Zone guy puts his signs on state DOT stop signs, all I need is to write the DOT asking for written confirmation that they haven't given him permission. With that in hand I can go to the state police and they *should* be willing to arrest him. If they catch him in the act. So if I can actually get that in place, I'll stake out his intersections and call the police when I see him put up the first one.

--Ethan

Ethan wrote:

> With that in hand I can go to the state police and they *should* be willing to arrest him. If they catch him in the act. So if I can actually get that in place, I'll stake out his intersections and call the police when I see him put up the first one. >

I wouldn't bet on it. This "IF" is the same problem all over the country. According to 97% of all CE offices, the person placing the sign "must be observed" by a civil servant of authority before charges can be rendered.

Your best bet is to photograph this person in the act, with a high speed shutter camera during the day if possible. A camera flash may induce a nasty confrontation which is not worth the effort. One thing we found that works extrermely well, is to photograph the offending sign with a "digital" camera, making sure the day/date feature is enabled and email that information to the necesssary office. Be it either code compliance, DOT, or Attorney General's office.

I still say citizens complaints, via email, snail mail and calls will do as much as anything to stop the problem. However, those compliants must go to someone that has enough "horsepower" to do something rather than a minimum wage clerk or telehone answering order taker. That within itself is a major problem of getting past the common telephone block.

Good luck at what ever you do. We had the same problem in the Dallas area, but no more, persistence did pay off.

GreatWhite-BH (GW)
No.Texas Chapter - CAUSS
signbuster@aol.com

GW

GW,

> I wouldn't bet on it.

Yeah, no fooling. I figured before I bother writing to the DOT I'd call the state police. The sergeant I talked to said to call the local police department. (Hey Sarge, put down the donut and go do something.) But when I called the local police the major I talked to said he'd check out the statute, then call the Fitness Zone guy and tell him he'll be arrested if they catch him. Which is all I could hope for. He promised to call me back after he did that but hasn't yet. I'll wait another day and then bug him.

--Ethan

>
>I just got off the phone with the state attorney general's office. They said, contrary to my reading of the statute, that the phone or power company have to complain before they can do anything. However, since the Fitness Zone guy puts his signs on state DOT stop signs, all I need is to write the DOT asking for written confirmation that they haven't given him permission. With that in hand I can go to the state police and they *should* be willing to arrest him. If they catch him in the act. So if I can actually get that in place, I'll stake out his intersections and call the police when I see him put up the first one.
>
>--Ethan

What a bunch of bullshit from the AG's office. I just re-read section 23-65, and there's NO mention of them having to receive a complaint from the Electric company. If you have time, why not call the AG back and ask them to cite the statutes in support of their position?

I'll be the phone company and the electric company have something on their websites that says they don't give anyone permission to put signs on their poles.

More later
Redstone

Red,

> What a bunch of bullshit from the AG's office. I just re-read section 23-65, and there's NO mention of them having to receive a complaint from the Electric company. <

Yeah, probably. (Hey AG, put down the latte and go do something.)

> I'll be the phone company and the electric company have something on their websites that says they don't give anyone permission to put signs on their poles. <

I'm going to call the SNET and CL&P legal depatments next, and ask why they don't pursue this more. Once I have gone as far as I can - assuming I get nowhere with the various government agencies and police departments - I'm going to take this to one of the Connecticut TV stations and try to get them to do an expose.

--Ethan

>Red,
>
>> What a bunch of bullshit from the AG's office. I just re-read section 23-65, and there's NO mention of them having to receive a complaint from the Electric company. <
>
>Yeah, probably. (Hey AG, put down
>the latte and go do
>something.)
>
>> I'll be the phone company and the electric company have something on their websites that says they don't give anyone permission to put signs on their poles. <
>
>I'm going to call the SNET
>and CL&P legal depatments next,
>and ask why they don't
>pursue this more. Once I
>have gone as far as
>I can - assuming I
>get nowhere with the various
>government agencies and police departments
>- I'm going to take
>this to one of the
>Connecticut TV stations and try
>to get them to do
>an expose.
>
>--Ethan

Good digging on your part; keep us advised on progress in a new thread so we don't have to scroll so much, if you would.

It's good that you call both the phone and electric companies. I was sharking a sign in Guilford a couple of weeks back, and there were two SNET buys and a Guilford cop watching me from about twenty feet away. I went over to chat with them, and they told me that some of the poles are owned by SNET, and some by CL&P / UI.I didn't ask how to tell which was which, but you can probably get a blanket statement from both.

Or maybe some active help, if we're real lucky.Let us know how you make out.

Redstone

On the TV end, I suggested that WTNH TV-8 in New Haven do a story on street spam. I clicked on the "suggest a story" on the lower left of their website (www.wtnh.com). I gave them this website for their info. They e-mailed back to say they were interested and looking into it. We'll see.

Mack,

> On the TV end, I suggested that WTNH TV-8 in New Haven do a story on street spam ... They e-mailed back to say they were
>interested and looking into it. We'll see. <

That's great. If they get back to you, I'd be happy to be a part of the effort. I have about 3200 signs so far, which is visually impressive.

--Ethan

A big display of ugly signs does get the attention. The Dallas paper sent out a photographer to take pictures of about 700 signs scattered along my driveway and fence. The picture went with a story they did. We were careful to arrange the signs so that the URL's and phone numbers were at least patrtially obscured. With a still picture it is somewhat challenging to show the full ugliness of 700 pictures.

TV coverage gets accross the full ugliness better because they can pan from one end to the other. 3200 signs would make an impressively ugly picture. If you get press coverage, it would be great if you can post it here or point to where it is posted. If you tape it off the TV, you can digitize and compress the image to make it viewable via downloading or streaming. I taped the news coverage using my digital video camera and then used iMovie on my MAC to convert it into a QuickTime movie. I think it is still on a server somewhere. If you want to see it, I'll try to dig out where it was that I stored it.

Newbie

Newbie (not)

New,

> 3200 signs would make an impressively ugly picture. <

Yeah, except they're all in big piles in my garage. But I could spread them out.

> If you get press coverage, it would be great if you can post it here or point to where it is posted. <

There's a newspaper article from last year about my efforts on my web site:

www.ethanwiner.com/signman.html

> If you tape it off the TV ...

If that happens I'll be sure to put it on my site.

--Ethan

Ethan,

Great news article on the "sign man." Great quotes from the police and the city attorney. Very nice work!!

Newbie

Newbie (not)